June 2019
During the months of collective creation of the film Libertad, the people involved, young and old, shared their reflections, concerns and experiences of the process. As a result of what was set out by the team during the meetings and collected in the interviews and writings, we arrived at this conversation. This transcription, which claims to be faithful to what happened, recounts one of these encounters that is none other than everyone as a whole. An encounter that did not take place beyond these lines. A conversation that never existed.
A friend told me that she knew a lady who wanted to tell her story about the Civil War and why she didn’t do a documentary. I was a bit lazy, at first the stories of the Civil War did not interest me very much. When I heard her story it shocked me and I knew I had to film that story. I’ve started but I can’t find a way to do it. What I film does not work.
MIGUEL
How could we tell it?
We could fictionalise it.
Remake the event.
But wouldn’t it be weak and false?
We need something to happen that holds the narration. A narrative device. Hence the need for the boys and girls to be the protagonists of the device that will support the film narrative. And the protagonists or the event cannot be fictionalised either.
ALBERTO
Libertad was a cinematographic project proposed by Chus four years ago resulting from the testimony of Josefa Castro García. This is key, since the Libertad Project is based on a previous film project. There is already a previous story and structure based on the oral testimony of Josefa that Chus recorded and edited. And in the process, sixteen young people from the first and second year of high school have worked on it.
CHUS
Yes, Libertad starts from one idea I had with a partially finished script. I say partially because the story is not the script, but a base for it.
ALBERTO
Josefa recounts her adolescence: the years in which she was imprisoned during the Civil War for being the daughter and sister of Republicans. There is a great contrast between her dramatic memories and the lives of the project participants. The young people enter the story of Josefa from a temporal distance, from vital alienation. Therefore, the points of reference cannot be established from what is experiential but what is fictional about films, as seen in the wars shown on the news or in the photos of history books.
BELÉN
For me, the sessions in which we heard Josefa’s sound fragments were moments where history and cinema converged. It was the meeting, on the one hand, of an oral story, which is the story of our elders, our grandmothers and great grandmothers, the history of the peoples of León and the history of Spain in the twentieth century, and on the other hand, a film that we are imagining as we listen to Josefa. The images come to mind through the process of empathy that we want to activate.
LUCÍA
I wondered whether the students had gone beyond the particular story of Josefa. If she had also moved their family memories. I think the project has been a mechanism for the boys and girls, who are 17 and 18, to ask themselves about these questions. When we were together in the house of Josefa’s daughters, when they open the albums and the boxes with photos and memories, this was an especially intimate moment.
BELÉN
Cinema tries to tell stories and make us think, and that is what we do when we listen to Josefa: think and imagine collectively. We join past and present. They are performative film sessions. Josefa and kids with adults who converge in the same space to collectively imagine the film.
LUCÍA
Yes, to imagine it, but also to remember it collectively.
ALBERTO
The project is the result of a collective work that represents the sum of the involvements, contributions, successes, mistakes, contradictions and trusts of all its participants.
CHUS
I think that if in Libertad, Josefa has shared her life, she is also collaborating in the construction of the film. It provides a degree of scaffolding that greatly facilitates the development of the project by a group of people who are encountering film creation for the first time.
ALBERTO
The participants had to go into the story of Josefa, interpret it and build it again cinematographically, with the images and sounds that could be included in it.
MIGUEL
I think the same thing has happened to all of us, including Chus. Maybe the kids haven’t, but the others have somehow had the feeling you get when you enter the room after the movie has started. Having to recompose it, invent it, interpret it and give it shape.
CHUS
You might think that, as it starts out with one of my proposals, it is impossible for the project to be collaborative, or that from the point of view of collaboration the project was crippled, because not all the participants have intervened from the beginning in everything.
On the one hand, I don’t know to what extent the idea is mine; I’d say that instead the idea came to me through Josefa’s daughter who gave great importance to the experiences of her mother.
BELÉN
But how far do we give ideas to the boys and girls? Suggestions? Chus and Alberto had the shots, the scenes, the ideas in their heads… the creative thrust was imposed on the days of recording. The anxiety about formal results made us forget the process.
CHUS
I don’t think that this means forgetting the process. Instead, I’d say that a failure to do so, would mean forgetting the aims. I think that film-making has something special in this sense, the process and the objective of reaching a final product have to be very much combined. Without this final product, the process will have been a process of learning, of a workshop, but not a process of making a cinematographic work.
ALBERTO
Yes, but despite being called the Libertad Project, the sessions have been quite directed, due mainly to its short duration. There has been a large dependence by the young people on the adults in things like placing the camera on the tripod, measuring the light of the scene, loading the rolls of film or controlling the development process.
BELÉN
We couldn’t handle the anxiety, time, hurry.. We’re always in a hurry…
CHUS
That’s the problem, and the solution, in the background; there’s always a matter of time: time for participants to internalise a more or less fluid pace for the making of the film, time for them to understand that they have to assume some responsibilities and objectives for filming day, time for the filming plan to be more comfortable… but that time does not exist. We find ourselves with a possible project against the utopian and impossible project.
BELÉN
Let’s share the ideas, but don’t do tricks, you have to take the camera and do this or that shot; you have to collaborate in the film but don’t expect them to film what they have not stopped to think about.
MIGUEL
I believe that in the end there is a film that will not be seen on the screen; it is off-camera, which is what we are talking about now. The decision to implement this narrative device with a commitment to truth -that the kids directed the film- has triggered a series of processes and events and reactions, questions and contradictions that I think has been the most interesting part of the project.
And the story of the film is that of Josefa and a group of people making a film about her and thinking and doubting what we have done, and what we have done right or wrong.
Thinking what we have been doing, if we have been making a film or a workshop to make movies or studying history or what.
ALBERTO
From my point of view, the fundamental aim of the project has been to make the film Libertad, apprenticeships being subject to the intentions or cinematographic approaches.
CHUS
This project is born of a creative need and I suppose that creation always implies learning…
LUCÍA
My question has been the functioning of the group as such, how the role of each one has been built and whether or not there is collective learning. We have been missing some along the way, which was predictable. Sometimes it seemed easier to understand each other in small groups than when we were all together.
CHUS
I think that a good idea for learning would be to try to bring about encounters throughout the process in which the learning and doubts that the process itself originates are shared with the whole team. With all this I’m not sure, when these lessons and changes are set out, how to make decisions about red lines, how to reach consensus, and how, here I’m talking about myself, how would I react if a decision was made that was against my way of understanding creation in something in which the aesthetic and the ethical are really intertwined. Here, I imagine that one of my limits has been my blunt approach to not recording beyond the spaces in which Josefa lived. I don’t even think that starting from a story is a limitation or a restriction; it is precisely that, a point of departure.
LUCÍA
It was a success making the effort to travel to the places that were the scene of the story of Josefa, the traces left by events on the earth, a kind of geographical memory.
ALBERTO
This has generated a connection of continuity to occupy the same territory, and a link that could be called familiar, as a direct inheritance from the past.
LUCÍA
We are not just speaking about historical memory, determined by events that in some way transcend us, because they come from power structures, but also from social memory, from how we remember collectively.
CHUS
What time is it? It won’t be long before they arrive…
(The young people who have participated in the project are coming)
CHUS
Where are you in this movie?
…Silence…
CHUS
How did you find it?
MARÍA
Her story seems to me rather unusual in the life of a person, and less in someone of our age. For us to be the scriptwriters was very difficult, because I can’t imagine a life like the one she had.
PAULA
Having the script there and asking yourself how can I transmit this? It makes you think and think a lot. When we started to think more seriously about how we were going to do it, this was when I realised that it is a real story, it is not something invented, it is something that has happened and that is there.
ALEJANDRO
For any movie, even if it is nastiest villain in the world, you try to put yourself in the role of the protagonist. Even if you don’t identify with the person, you put yourself in their shoes to grasp more about their essence. And even if you don’t want to, it makes you think.
SARA
I have tried to put myself in their shoes, but it is very difficult to imagine that a person of my same age had to go through everything that happened. It seems impossible with the life I have. It’s very hard.
JORGE
I can’t imagine what happened to her. Well, I imagine it and I understand it. But I find it very strange, I see it as unreal. It’s something that I study in History, but until you experience it, it’s nothing more than a story.
BELÉN
What you are saying is something we asked ourselves. You’re the same age as Josefa when she narrates her story, but because your life context is so different, we didn’t know if you were going to feel identified.
PAULA
I’m the same age as her, I have much smaller problems but that overwhelm me a lot. I couldn’t imagine that they were sending me to prison because my father is… They’re separating me from my family and sending me to the other side of the country… I can’t imagine it.
JORGE
To me, the saddest thing was that her name was stolen.
ALBA
In my case, it has helped me to think about the life she had and the life we have. My mother’s family left Spain during the whole Franco era and never experienced it. But it wasn’t so long ago. It is not that far away. It is good to recount these things and for them not to be forgotten.
JULIA
It is a matter of historical memory that in the end is close to everyone. Everyone has grandparents who have experienced something similar or know people with similar stories. My two grandparents were in San Marcos. Hang on, my grandparents no… my two great grandparents. My great-grandparents, yes.
GUILLERMO
The story is very impressive, but it’s not the only one. It is something that we’ve been learning, we have not focused only on Josefa’s story and what happened to her, but we have known how to look for the common thread in all the stories that they told. In Josefa’s story, events are being crossed. They are extreme situations, at the limit, and you realise that misfortune is common to all. Each one played their own part. It’s something with a greater impact than the one that affects only one person. The War, the post-War period, the crimes during the Dictatorship…
IRENE
At first, the story hits you a little. But as you film, search and relate it, it impacts you even more. For example, at Solana’s meal we were all together with Josefa’s daughters and they started taking their photos. There was a letter that Josefa’s sister had written to her dead baby. Josefa’s daughter was reading it and she became emotional… And I was already in tears. It hits you in the first person.
CARMEN
Of course, before I started, I didn’t imagine being in the same places as Josefa or meeting her family. And that places you a little more in her situation, although I didn’t imagine that it would be so much. I didn’t know either before the statements of the people who had experienced it, which is History, so it’s very good to know how they lived.
IRENE
And you can see many movies that deal with what has been going on all these years, but when you have a case so close, they explain it so well and they show it to you… We have seen Josefa telling us the story and that impacts you more. It’s very different.
GUILLERMO
You don’t know that historical memory is important because they tell you that it is important. But by doing a project like this, you realise how really important it is. And behind those things there are people, people like you. Transmitting this context is very important. Because being cold at a certain point dehumanises you. We must understand the human dimension: this happened to people who had a normal life, and suddenly things happened.
PAULA
Doing these projects and keeping them in our memory helps us not to repeat the same mistakes, because if they tell you in class, you don’t pay attention, you will never realise that it can be repeated. If everyone knows what has happened, these situations can be avoided. It happened not so long ago.
MARÍA
The fact that we’re here will help the things that happened to Josefa not happening again in the future. They were absolute atrocities. People who had totally lost their freedom of expression died, something that nowadays… You can’t kill a person because you have different ideals.
BELÉN
What you’re saying is very interesting.
We also wanted to ask you about the film, and if you feel it is yours.
TOMÁS
I don’t know what I contribute, we all decide what to do, we decide in a group.
JORGE
The main idea for the film came from Chus and we’re the ones who help him to make it.
BELÉN
But it’s not the same to help to make it than being the author of the film. Who is creating it? Where does the authorship of a film lie? Are we all co-authors?
JORGE
Well, create it, we are creating it, but of course, we have to help you; it’s like a mixture. It is like you without us you can’t do it and we without you either. It’s mutual. You have taught us to film, the cameras… we give you the ideas of the shots, but they’re not always correct. At first, we thought about dramatising everything Josefa said. And you have taught us to do it in another way. Reflection is essential; otherwise the images would not come out. There are complicated pieces of filming, in which it’s impossible to represent what Josefa felt.
SARA
The movie is something from everyone, that we are doing together. There is nobody who has more power than anyone else in the group; we’re all the same.
BELÉN
It’s interesting, because you say that there is nobody who has more power than anyone else in the group, but you are very sure that the older ones are asking us for guidelines, you’re asking us to play a role as guides. Do you need our approval?
ALEJANDRO
Sometimes we ask you if it’s OK and you tell us you will know, it’s your scene. Well, I don’t know if it’s OK or not.
SARA
Of course, it’s our first time. I meant that you don’t force anything on us. You don’t tell us what has to be one way or another. You let us give our own opinions and if they can’t be carried out, you give us yours.
TOMÁS
There’s freedom. If we want to do one thing in the end, we do it. It is true that you advise us or tell us what to do, but at the beginning we didn’t know how to film, how to take shots, or anything. Then, after receiving the advice, we have more freedom to decide if we like something or not, or if we want to do it one way or another.
CARMEN
We have a lot of freedom in making the shots, because we always contribute with our ideas, and if you want to make any modifications, you also propose it as an idea. We end up trying out the different possibilities, and in the end we take the one we like the best. We don’t have an exact idea of what we want, but we need help, we need you to guide us. You are also in the project.
ALEJANDRO
It’s very cooperative. The scenes, in the end, we have decided or they have come from us. Yes, there are guidelines, you set them for us and correct us because we haven’t an idea. But it’s more ours, you don’t do it because you’ve been told to film it. The discussions we have help us to develop our creativity and imagination, which at school they don’t teach you.
GUILLERMO
I feel it as a project in which I have the power of action and a certain creative margin to do almost what I want. Over time, you realise that we’re a group that already works unanimously.
PAULA
Everyone does teamwork in class, but not in this way. In class, they give you a theme and guidelines that you can’t deviate from. Here, you’ve given us freedom, and you’re helping us because it’s necessary, but with freedom. If it had been in a stricter way it would not be coming out the way it is.
It is no longer let’s film this because it’s pretty. You have to think about what you want to convey and how you’re going to understand it. It’s a very nice process and it’s in a team. Maybe I have an idea, but someone else gives me an idea. It’s learning from others too. Putting together two ideas, something comes out that is better at conveying the idea. And not only us, but with you too, or with people who are older and who have another perspective in life. It’s something that makes you grow as a person.
BELÉN
True. Sometimes this involves a lot of prejudices but we have to be all the same. We should also know that we’re older with more experience and we must share that.
JORGE
I don’t feel the adults as authority, but as companions. But each one has his place. The teacher is always the teacher.
GUILLERMO
The intergenerational division between youth and adults is inevitable. I always try to learn from anyone who can teach me. Having an experience with professionals and seeing everything they can give you, in both technical and human terms, that is very important for me. In this project, everything adds up and although the film is not a great Hollywood production, we have to see this microcosm that is formed and the interplay, which are very important.
ALEJANDRO
At school, you limit yourself to a teacher-student relationship. Outside, you can talk about other things with your teacher, just like another person.
You go into class and they’re the one who fails you, who gets cross with you…
IRENE
It’s clear that in class (teachers) they have to play a role, they aren’t like that. They have to make you respect them, if you don’t, they don’t push you around. This depends a lot on age, it’s not the same to be with those who are more mature than with those who are 12 years old…
BELÉN
But at high school, do they treat you like adults?
IRENE
…Not really.
SOFIA
At high school, as there are a lot of us, we have a collective voice instead of everyone giving their opinion… Or maybe it’s more that it’s a space to learn things instead of to give your opinion.
ALEJANDRO
I think it’s good that there is some authority in class. Without an authority figure practically nothing could be done. Someone that is not too strict, but who sets the limits. Sometimes when you tell us you know. No, don’t say that, it’s your film.
JORGE
But we don’t get these spaces at high school. There are teachers who, even if they’d like to, don’t have the means either. At high school, it’s study and study. We study to get a mark. It doesn’t matter if you learn, because no matter how much you learn, if you fail the exam, you’ve failed.
JULIA
This is nothing like high school. Because in the end this is something we’re doing because we like it and because we want to. You don’t go out on a Friday and you’re here because you want to. School is different: you have to go, you have to study…
SARA
I think it’s because at school they give you some phrases that you have to learn, a syllabus and that’s it. There are many ways of learning that is not memorising. For example, we’re all learning many things here and we’re not memorizing. We’re learning really interesting things.
PAULA
In a class, everything is set out. They tell you everything from a historical point of view, but not a personal one. I think you learn more from a person’s experiences than learning dates. The story of Josefa is not only the war but her whole life.
ALBA
I think that the methods at high school could be changed, but perhaps for younger ages. For us, who are in their second year of high school, it couldn’t be so participative. Among other things because there is no time, we have to do an exam at the end of the course, there is a subject to be done and at this level I don’t think it could be done. But perhaps in lower courses, in primary school. Yes, they could be given other methodologies.
ALBERTO
When you decided to participate in Libertad, did you imagine that it would be like that?
ALEJANDRO
I think none of us expected that it would be like that, especially at the beginning when everything is a bit colder. But once you get to know people, make friends, participate in a project with responsibilities and a commitment that you try to honour.
PAULA
At the first meetings, hardly anyone contributed to anything because we had to assimilate it. It was real; we had the opportunity to express how we wanted a story as upsetting as Josefa’s. This so tough, I can say as I want.
SARA
The first day, I had no idea that it would be like that. I thought it was going to be a lot more boring, but I really like it. For various things, such as how to do things. At the beginning, you had to organise what you were going to do in each scene, the most unpleasant part of the whole project. Then filming and staging it, or developing, that’s different.
ALBA
Me too. At first, everything was boring, all planning and the like, but as it has progressed I’ve been getting more and more involved, it has been very interesting and fun, different, new and experimental.
ALEJANDRO
But, even if sometimes you don’t feel like it or you can’t come one day, this requires a discipline, because it is yours too and you can’t let your classmates down. You can’t fail.
IRENE
When they showed films at the beginning, movies that I didn’t understand, they seemed illogical. I like films, but normal films. They tell a story and that everything that happens is shown as such in the images. This is something else. You can tell it in another way.
MÓNICA
The images go with the story. The story is the most important but the images give some value to the film. They give context of the present, they place it. It’s as if the story was being done again now.
CARMEN
Having followed Josefa’s footsteps and her story, we’ve got more into her role than when we were listening to her. Listening to her is as if we were seeing it but not making the story. By doing that, we become more aware of what she was and what she wants to tell us.
ALBA
It is a way of learning that cinema is not just one thing, that there are different ways of making it, of seeing it, that it depends on the creativity of each person, on the idea that you have.
I never thought that in an activity these things would happen to me. It is a way of exploring yourself and what you can get out.
CARMEN
Filming with an analogue camera and seeing it so differently helps to travel to the past while we see the present. We get into her story from our present.
ALEJANDRO
I think the movie is going to be totally different from what we thought when we were shooting with the camera. Being black and white and developed, you don’t know how it will be.
IRENE
I really want to see the result. I can’t imagine it.
SARA
I don’t know, when I grow up and people are talking about films, I can say that I made one…
* The excerpts of the first conversation, between the adults, were taken from the texts they wrote once the process was finished.
The second conversation, however, comprises excerpts from interviews conducted by Alberto and Belén to the young people at two occasions during the process, before the film was finished.
Therefore, although in this text the reflections enter into a dialogue with each other, they were not made in the same time framework.
Mercedes Álvarez Espáriz is a cultural manager, researcher and educator. She holds a degree in Audiovisual Communication and a Master’s Degree in Contemporary Art and Visual Culture (MNCARS). She has conducted several pieces of research on artistic processes in schools for institutions such as CA2M or MNCARS. She currently accompanies and manages several projects. Her interests focus on the fields of education and collaborative artistic practices.